2 sec rule..etc

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 3:16pm

Last year I was an FNG and had thoughts about the side by side riding, but I also thought that if I did not like it or it made me stress out, I would move to the back of the pack and ride there. There is no pride loss for riding how one feels safest. A lot of people tell me they do it once or twice, then they go on their own and stay out of the Run. I thought that way, but now I am going to go next year, if able and not sure when I will quit.

There can be a crash any time any where no matter how you ride. We have lost good friends who were great drivers and always wore every safety piece made, but it did not help. If you ride in a pack or ride alone you risk getting into an accident. I feel safe riding close when I trust the people around me, and there are always some who I don't trust. I know a lot of riders that would at a stop tell the person next to them, that they would no longer ride beside them, and nothing wrong with that.

I feel this some riders did not try or did not care about the way the ride is intended. Both legs out on pegs, could hear music or the CB because speakers were on and too many brake lights. Maybe I am wrong, which is nothing new for me ... I think riding as a tight pack is best but ones head must be into the ride. I stressed out the first day of my FNG year, but the next I learned that it does not have to be white knuckled ride. Riding in rain the worst thing to do is to tighten up on the grips and handle bars and stress out. Same goes for the pack riding.

There are always changes that can help, but not sure what major changes could be done that would make it totally safe and how big would the pack be.

Open conversions are great and everyone learns.....

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world.

But the U.S. ARMED FORCES don't have that problem." -Ronald Reagan

Pine Tree

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 4:04pm

bounce wrote:

Pine Tree thanks for your support, but since you no longer ride with us my question is do you get enjoyment out of talking folks out of doing the Run?

I re-read my post several times and I simply can't find any words suggesting folks not do the run. But to ask if I get some sort of "enjoyment" from my comments is certainly not a position I would expect a RFTW member to take.

bounce wrote:

...As for VNCV68 he too is right if you want to have things changed this forum is not the place to get it done...

Again, I went back and read my post and didn't find one single suggestion that the BOD or any other governing body make any changes to anything. Please look carefully at my post and you should notice that I simply replied to another forum member.

While I appreciate the public nature of this forum and the enthusiasm of many members, people do come here to learn and interact.

8th & I Association Member

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 4:20pm

I've been folling this subject with great intrest. I joined RFTW in '08 and started out on the southern route. I went stright to side by side riding as I had learned this in Hawaii while in the service. The Hawain police always made us ride side by side if there was more then two of us. (Not a law, just what they reqired). Now, 8 years into the run and fast approching 70 years on this good earth, I'm finding that I'm not quit as "sharp" as I once was.A lot of us are begining to feel that way. I't does effect our reaction time and that is something we all have to think about as we "get older". The BOD knows this, That's why they put in a disclamer saying that if you don't feel your riding skills are up to this kind of a mission, then don't do it. I beleave this is good policy. That being said, as was stated befor, riding in front or in back of the pack is an exllent option. I have some good friends that stay in front of the pack every year and they go every where the pack goes. This is a very important mission for most of us and I for one want to see every person that wants to do this do it.

For those that fought for it, freedom has a taste that the protected will never know.

Jim Ray

SR Advance Team

Palestine, TX

shadow

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 4:47pm

I CAN SEE ALOT OF POINTS MADE ON THIS SUBJECT AND INPUT IS GOOD--CONSTRUCTIVE.

WE DO NOT EVER WISH TO DISCOURAGE ANY ONE FROM DOING THIS MISSION. THO I HAVE NOT RODE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS--MY FIRST YEARS WITH THE RUN WERE PERFECTLY FINE RIDING THE 2 ND . AS WITH ANYTHING--IT MAY TAKE GETTING USED TO IF U DO NOT DO ORGNIZED RIDES OR RIDE LOOSELY. IT IS NOT BEYOND MOST PEOPLES CAPABILITIES. MAIN THING IS KEEP AN OPEN MIND--N PUT AS MUCH TIME IN THE SADDLE AS YOU CAN--CUZ IF U HAVE TO THINK ABT BRAKING N SHIFTING--N THROTTLING BACK-----THEN MAYBE YOU ARENT READY TO RIDE. IT SHULD ALL BE SECOND NATURE--AND THAT SIMPLY TAKES MANY HOURS IN THE SADDLE. HOPE TO SEE ALL OF U ON THE RFTW-2013!! WE RIDE IN FREEDOM FOR THOSE WHO CANT!!!

the Shadow

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 5:52pm

Amen.

This will probably be my last post on here. It's all negative, 2 sec rule, side by side vs staggered. Really? Like it's been said already, THIS IS A MISSION, NOT A SIGHTSEEING RIDE. Im a police officer, when an officer complains about something, the chief tells them to come up with a solution instead of just the complaining about the problem.

As an FNG, I would have been far more comfortable riding side by side rather than staggered behind some of the people I got stuck behind. Unfortunately one rider can mess up the whole formation.

Accident are going to happen when you put that many riders togther, some with very little if any experience riding in a large group. If the BOD decide to go to staggered for all the platoons, accidents will continue to happen. As i siad earlier, accident are going to happen when you put that many riders togther, some with very little if any experience riding in a large group.

Ride safe.

Freedom is definately not FREE!

Operation Enduring Freedom.

It's an honor to serve.

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 9:24pm

Pine Tree wrote:

While I continue to support the RFTW, I don't ride with the group any longer. My support is more in line with what "Papa Smurf" suggested...I just mail in my good wishes.

I'm concerned that in the not-too-distant future, the good press the RFTW now enjoys will be tarnished by reports of crashes, injuries, and even deaths occurring during a run because of what the non-riding public will perceive as dangerous riding.

This part of your post was the reason for my question. Whether you realize it or not today people read the forum trying to decide if they are going to join us or not. We all post here to get information out, and hopefully to encourage new riders to join us. I will not apologize for asking the question, and if throwing your words back at you make you uncomfortable well so be it. Bottom line those that want the Run to change to something it is not are just wrong. Every year this discussion goes on, and normally it gets started about January. and every year I try in a nice way to defend the run so that people who want to join us will. But everyone that says this is not a rally is right. In order to safely do this run you have to put your head 100% in the riding. Not look at scenery, the person that said that at the end of the day if the only thing you remember is the license plate in front of you, you did it right, was 100% right.

So Pine Tree keep mailing in the good wishes, thank you for your support again, I like Scott will not be posting on this issue again. Complaining about the way the Run rides, like defending it is beating on a dead horse. The horse can no longer feel it and eventually your hands get sore.

http://theadventuresofbounceandhismotorcyle.blogspot.com/

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 9:35pm

I'm the Jarhead that joined you guys at Junction City with the sole purpose of determining wether or not I would consider doing the whole route next year. After riding most of the leg towards Wentzville, I "tapped out". As I stated in earlier post, I've been riding for over 50 yrs. and the last 20 with The Brotherhood of Marine Riders out of Temecula, CA. I am a retired Marine Gunnery Sgt and a current Police Officer. With that said, I do not feel safe riding side by side a couple bike lengths behind the rider in front of me. Some say, "look ahead" to watch the situation. I couldn't as most bikes are loaded with gear. I did experience 85 mph to 15 mph deceleration twice after leaving Junction City. When I returned home, I "networked" with fellow riders and Cops that ride. I realize that my view was merely a "snapshot" of the ride but that was what I was I looking for. #1 conclusion was that the "leaders" 5 mph speed increment is actually contributing to the "rubberbandind" effect. A combat convoy Officer advised that the best method of increasing convoy speed is to do it in single mph increment. Easy to do with current electronic cruise control. #2 separate the platoon into squads of 20-25 riders. This will have several effects. 1st it will provide a safe zone within the platoon and most importantly, riders will quickly learn the riding skills of members within the squad. Should I be able to participate in the entire run next year, I will ride way out front of the formation. Should any Marines want to join me, you are welcomed. We will ride in Squad Formation. I have no desire to be a Platoon Leader as I do not have Run for the Wall experience. This will by no means guarantee an accident free enviorment. I just would like to know that should I not survive a situation, I prefer to be in the company of fellow Marines. Before you get you feathers ruffled, My first tour was with Army MPs 75-79 and my daughter is a former Air Force Capt. Corpsman always welcomed.

GySgt(R) Faz, John L.
USMC

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Posted: Jun-10-2012 at 9:59pm

The rubberband effect is caused by the riders not so much the leaders. The leaders keep there speed and the rubberband effect stills goes on. In all the platons all the time. For the Southern Route as well. RIDERS ERROR is the problem. KEEP BEATING THIS DEAD HOURSE.

David

USMC 67-70(0311)68 Kilo Co 3/7 1 MarDiv
RFTW 04,05,06,07,08ATW,10,12ATW
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All Gave Some - Some Gave All

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 12:07am

VNCV68 wrote:

To amplfy VNCV68's observation, after riding in the pack on six of my eight runs, I have come to believe the chief cause of the "rubberband" effect is riders failing to keep a close, tight interval. When one rides tight, it's easy to detect the interval opening early, and it can be slowly closed back up with very small throttle adjustments. But when the interval is large to begin with, the rider doesn't notice it opening until the gap has really grown to an unacceptable level. And of course, when he does notice it, the rider's first instinct is to really twist that throttle and close back up NOW! This creates an excessive overtake speed with the bike ahead, which then results in having to back down hard. Everybody behind that rider has to do the same, with the effects being magnified through each subsequent rider.

POND SCUM wrote that he believes the leaders contribute to "rubberbanding" by increasing the pack's speed of advance in 5 mph increments. Granted, the Route Coordinator announces the change over the CB in 5 mph increments, but in practice, he "beeps" his cruise control up 1 mph per minute over a period of 5 minutes to achieve that increase. I don't see how this practice could contribute to "rubberbanding" in any way.

I invite readers to view any of the many YouTube videos of RFTW going under an overpass at highway speed. I'm always struck by the fact that the first 3 or 4 ranks of every platoon are invariably tight and properly aligned, be it side-by-side or staggered. But from there back, it becomes progressively looser and more disorganized, until when you get to the rear of the platoon, there is no sembelance of order, whatsoever. It's rarely those riders in the first 3 or 4 ranks complaining about the "rubberband." If everybody kept that tight interval throughout the platoon, there'd be no reason for anyone to complain at all.

That's just my 2 cents worth, but I think it's worthy of consideration.

Edited by PapaSmurf - Jun-11-2012 at 12:45am

Dave "Papa Smurf" Klemme
Westminster, CO
USMC 1967-1992
RFTW '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '10 '11 '12
"Do it for God and it works for good; do it for good and it works for God"--B.C.'s Wiley

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 1:42am

God Bless You and Welcome Home. You are correct Papa Smurf, I was not aware that the increase in speed was done in one MPH increments. I can only attest to my experience in Platoon 2 leaving Junction City. We were the second platoon in formation and twice I had to decelerate from 80+mph to less than 20 mph as we tried to come up to speed. Once we got 6-8 miles down the road, things smoothed out as adjustments were made. What bothered me the most was not having any clue on the riding ability of those around me. That was my fault as I could not join the group earlier due to work commitments which I hope will be different next year. I enjoyed being a part of an event of this magnitude but am not willing to compromise my safety and that of those around me. I will respectfully ride ahead or behind. Semper Fi.

GySgt(R) Faz, John L

GySgt(R) Faz, John L.
USMC

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 6:46am

There are several things which contribute to the problem:

1-incorrect or contradictory information: "If all you remember of the ride is the license plate of the bike in front of you you have done the ride right" vs. keep an eye out several bikes infront of you so you can anticipate changes. These are nigh mutually exclusive statements.

2-As stated earlier, how can you keep an eye several bikes ahead if the bike(s) right in front of you are so loaded that you cannot see over them?

3-failure of riders to pass information back: either a) they are in too tight a formation and cannot (or are scared to) let go of the left grip to pass the hand signals back. or b) they are too intent on their own ride or the bike right infront of them to pass the signals back.

4-Size of the pack: Our foot print is HUGE sometimes 600+ bikes, it is easy for parts of the pack to get separated, then there is the "mad scramble" to get back into formation with the rest of the pack. This is also true with some paltoons, some of them become very large, 3rd platoon on SR this year was at 60+ bikes at one time-way too big for a single platoon.

5-The statement by RFTW that we generally run 5mph under the posted speed limit and sometimes less is misleading. There were times that I was having to ride at over the posted speed limit to keep up, I rode at 80mph for about 4 miles at one point, not to close the gap but to maintain the "proper" spacing, if i HAD run at 60 I would have had half the platoon way out of line and everyone on my left passing me. One should not have to go over the speed limit to "catch up" let alone maintain spacing if the entire pack is "riding at 5 mph under the posted limit"

6-A mixed bag of experience within all the platoons. Day riders in front platoons, FNGs (who are experiencing the joy, sorrow and duty of the mission for the first time which can distract them) scattered throughout the formation. Riders who have only one season of riding with vetrans of decades of experience. Older riders with slower reaction times with young guys with split second timing etc. And all this with no time to really get to know the riders right beside, infront and behind you much less the entire platoon before you get moved around by a fuelstop/lunch stop/end of day.

Are we riding too tight, I think we are at times. Is SBS or staggered better? SBS looks better, neither is inherently safer IMHO. How can we fix the issues? Time will tell, IMHO we need to make sure that no platoon gets too large (no more than 40 bikes in a platoon PERIOD, if we have to add platoons so be it. Once a platoon gets to be over 30 bikes, perhaps the ass't platoon leader should ride in the middle of that platoon to keep it organized and provide a "leader" should the platoon become separated.

But friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life, and thanks to a benevolent arrangement the greater part of life is sunshine.

Thomas Jefferson

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 7:36am

I know all of you have valuable advice, but this disscussion is turning away from the real issue the Mission... We ride/drive for some to honor the POW/MIA/KIA and all those whom have served and are currently serving. To bring attention to those that still need to come home. I Believe that the board and leadership of the run will make any necessary changes for the safety of the group as they present themselves to be necessary, the only issue as I see it is participants need to support the mission and family Never forget....

Freedom is a fragile thing and is never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation. Thanks SheWolf

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 8:21am

She Wolf,

Well said.

Period.

The

Pelican

I never met a man I didn't like... will rodgers

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 9:11am

OGRE--some great points. If I may, I'd like to clarify a couple of them.

1. Remembering the license plate of the bike in front of you vs. look at the bikes a few positions ahead of you. The "license plate" canard wasn't intended to be taken literally. It's a figure of speech intended to illustrate the kind of concentration required to successfully ride in the pack.

2. Looking at the bikes ahead of you. Yes, many of them are packing loads that make it hard to see past them. But a rider can always see the bikes 4 or 5 positions ahead in the adjacent column. If they're reacting to something, it's a pretty good bet that it's going to affect both columns. It's just a defensive riding technique for early detection and avoidance of problems. I've found that dividing my attention more-or-less evenly between the bike directly in front of me, and those a few positions ahead, helps me keep the best situational awareness of what's going on around me.

3. Pack Speed: I had the distinct privilege of riding next to "Trunks" from Rancho to Holbrook, AZ over the first day and a half of the Run this year. I can attest that he brought the Pack up to speed smoothly and gradually, and that he never once exceeded 65 mph. Any riding in excess of that speed that may have happened further back in the Pack is purely a byproduct of "rubberbanding." It was not caused by anything the Route Coordinator did, or failed to do.

4. I love your idea about inserting the Asst. Plt. Ldr. in the middle of the platoon after it grows past a certain size. If you don't propose this to the BOD as a policy change for future Runs, I'm gonna steal it from you and propose it myself.

Good, thoughtful comments, Ogre. Thanks for posting them.

Edited by PapaSmurf - Jun-11-2012 at 9:22am

Dave "Papa Smurf" Klemme
Westminster, CO
USMC 1967-1992
RFTW '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '10 '11 '12
"Do it for God and it works for good; do it for good and it works for God"--B.C.'s Wiley

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 9:25am

Lots of good feedback here

FYI -- here's copy of the After Action form if you need it....

http://rftw.org/assets/pdf_files/Run_For_The_Wall_After_Action_Report_Form.pdf

Gallupe, USAF-RET 7/1978 to 8/1998

Honoring all who serve. Remember and paying respects for all who paid the ultimate price to keep us free.

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Posted: Jun-11-2012 at 6:28pm

I am glad I was able to ride on the RFTW 12 and it was a learning experience and I thought I was an avid rider now after riding with a bunch of great guys and gals as a FNG I can say the ride was awesome...

Those complaining about this 2 sec rule I will say I new every license plate frame and light arrangement of the back of their bike I was behind... I am so glad to have been a part of the 2012 group.. See you guys next year!!!!!

Run For the Wall has changed my life in many ways!!!! RIDE ON BROTHERS REMEMBER THOSE WHO CANT RIDE!!!!

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