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Side-by-Side vs. Staggered? |
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ray too tall 
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Joined: Sep-30-2009 Location: Odessa tex Status: Offline Points: 137 |
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 Posted: May-29-2012 at 2:33pm |
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I am on the BOD and I have been reading all of your post on the side by side and I can assure you that the bod will be working on this to try and come up with something that will be the safest thing possiable for all the riders I dont know what the new plan will be but we will be working on it over the next year among other things and thanks for all of your input on this or any other subject about Run For the Wall Mission Ray Too Tall McDowell bod 2012-13
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ray too tall
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PapaSmurf
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Joined: Mar-27-2011 Location: Westminster, CO Status: Offline Points: 335 |
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Posted: May-29-2012 at 4:35pm |
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OK, let's quit beating around the bush and talk about the real issue. HINT: it isn't riding formation. When I made my first Run in 2004, I considered myself to be an "average" Vietnam vet... which is to say, I was just shy of 54 years old. Today, after completeing my 8th Run in nine years, I'm still that "average" Vietnam vet... I'm pushing 63 now. Folks, we're all getting older and our riding skills are deteriorating. Reaction times just ain't what they used to be. Anyone who isn't willing to acknowledge this is just kidding himself. The fundamental question for the BOD, and for each of us individually, is how best to compensate for this regretable fact of life to maximize safety for all concerned? It isn't going to be an easy fix, but everything (riding formations, intervals, individual rider qualifications/abilities) has to be on the table. Make no mistake... this is the issue that is at the heart of everything else.
Edited by PapaSmurf - May-29-2012 at 4:38pm |
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Dave "Papa Smurf" Klemme
Westminster, CO USMC 1967-1992 RFTW '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '10 '11 '12 '13 "Do it for God and it works for good; do it for good and it works for God"--B.C.'s Wiley |
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caliber1
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Joined: Feb-24-2011 Location: Groveland, Fl. Status: Offline Points: 182 |
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Posted: May-29-2012 at 5:26pm |
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I rode the southern route last year because that was where my brother was riding. That being said, I was glad it was staggered formation. I was pretty upset, and ready to head home when we were in Meridian, when a brother said "man, looks like you're deep in thought". I told him, yep, just wondering what the he!! some of these people are doing here. He then told me, "everyone is here for their own reasons brother". That's when I got it. Thank you, whoever you were for enlightening me.
You just need to ALWAYS be aware of whats going on. High alert basically, as long as you are on the road. No matter what formation is called for. Riding with people I don't know, I prefer staggered though.
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Scott F.
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Joined: Jul-02-2011 Location: Gadsden, AL Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Posted: May-29-2012 at 6:07pm |
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I would much rather ride side by side with experienced riders than staggered behind some of the people I got stuck behind this year. Riding in a big formation isn't for everybody. There were times when I was stuck behind an unsafe rider that I thought about pulling over and finishing that leg on my own. This was my first year and it was an amazing experience. Airborne did an AWESOME job as route coordinator. The road guards, platoon leaders, fuel crews were nothing short of awesome. I know this is a side by side vs staggered thread, but I just had to give my two censt worth.
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Freedom is definately not FREE!
Operation Enduring Freedom. It's an honor to serve. |
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Vapors
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Joined: Feb-06-2010 Location: Denver, CO Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Posted: May-29-2012 at 6:39pm |
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This is an issue that comes up every year on RFTW. Many have pointed it out, but few follow the focus of this mission. THIS IS A MISSION!!! It's not a sight seeing ride, it's not a chapter ride, it's not a weekend fun run. This mission takes concentration, focus and dedication. Music IS a distraction, wind is a distraction, heat is a distraction, dehydration is a distraction, looking around at the sigts is a distraction, trying to yell "talk" to your riding buddy next to you is a distraction. While in formation, show the Run and what it stands for the respect it deserves: YOUR 100% UNDIVIDED ATTENTION... NO DISTRACTIONS...PERIOD. The fuel stops give you a chance to listen to music, talk to your buddies, rehydrate, hit the bathroom, etc.
Remember our motto :
"WE RIDE FOR THOSE WHO CAN'T"
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Trent "VAPORS" Caster
"I will NEVER FORGET the sacrifices of our military" RFTW '09-'10,'11 Staging Crew, '12-'13 Road Guard (ATW) Patriot Guard Rider American Legion Rider Dist 4 Post 1992 |
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grizzly
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 7:38am |
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Well said Vapers! Everyone should read newsletter in the archives, April 2006. RFTW riding rules. This is not a Hog Ride This is not a PGR ride, This is Run For The Wall! Side by side or staggered ,It does not matter, you have the same spacing. That is if you are holding up your part.
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ALL GAVE SOME. SOME GAVE ALL.SOME ARE STILL GIVING!
Central Route Road Guard Capt. |
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shadow
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Joined: Feb-20-2010 Location: wv Status: Offline Points: 3472 |
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 8:10am |
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VAPORS THAS WHAT WE WERE TOLD ON THE CENTRAL RTE MORNIN MEETING. CUZ SOME WERE TREATING IT AS A SUNDAY RIDE OR POKER RUN. IT IS NOT. IN THE PAST I HAVE CAUGHT HELL HERE FOR STATING -SAFETY AS A BIG CONCERN. I HATE WHEN ANY ONE OF US GOES DOWN FOR WHAT EVER REASON. WE WERE TOLD POINT BLANK--NO FIDDLING WITH ANYTHING. CAMERAS --CELLS OR SIMILAR. N THAT CAME FROM LEADERSHIP. I HAVE RODE SIDE BY SIDE ON THE RUN N MANY OTHER BIKER EVENTS. N HAVE NO PROBLEMS. BUT EACH IS DIFF. BUT THE MAIN FOCUS HERE--IS THE MISSION. IM SORRY IF SOME DONT GET IT. BUT IF U THINK ITS A PARTY OR SUNDAY RIDE OR A SIGHT SEEING TOUR-STAY HOME. DO NOT ENDANGER THE REST. I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO ANY ONE.
 Edited by shadow - May-30-2012 at 8:11am |
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the Shadow
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toad6301
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Joined: May-11-2011 Location: ColoradoCity,TX Status: Offline Points: 174 |
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 3:32pm |
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2012 was my FNG year and run on the SR and I rode the
first day in Platoon #5 (staggered) and was able to move up to Platoon #2 (side by side)on my second day and I was more comfortable riding from then on. I account that to the skill levels, confidence, and attentiveness to all situations from the fellow Platoon mates for that. I felt that we rode as a unit not as individuals and we each were more concerned about each other and watching their six and we knew they were watching ours, that is the feeling I had anyway. MISSION FIRST, as said before "not a ride to the burger barn" Keep your head on a swivel and look ahead three to four bikes and be alert at all times to what is ahead. TC |
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2009 Ultra Classic
U.S.Navy vet 1981-85,1990-93 STG1 USS Elmer Montgomery,Miller,and Olendorf CMA chaplain and Patriot Guard member |
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KS Casper
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Joined: Mar-10-2010 Location: Wichita, KS Status: Offline Points: 207 |
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 3:35pm |
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Lets just look at the numbers. 5,280 feet in a mile, 60 MPH = 88 feet per second X 2 sec following distance = 196 feet between 2 bikes in a line. That is about what, 3 semi tractors long (53 feet each), plus 18 feet between each trailer. Hummmmm. As the lead element is leaving Texas on the southern route, the chase vehicles are just leaving New Mexico.
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CASPER FNG 2009
CHICKEN LITTLE 2010 USN 68/74 ABF2/DV1 BROWN WATER NAVY 70/71 |
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KS Casper
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 3:38pm |
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176 feet, typed it wrong (fat fingers), 8 feet between trailers.
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CASPER FNG 2009
CHICKEN LITTLE 2010 USN 68/74 ABF2/DV1 BROWN WATER NAVY 70/71 |
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caliber1
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 5:07pm |
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Well said Vapors. There were just some people that didn't get that I reckon.
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Pine Tree
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 5:37pm |
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While most here certainly appreciate your enthusiasm, the safety and wellbeing of each and every rider/participant/observer also deserves the same (if not more) consideration and respect. And as you have so accurately stated the RFTW's motto, it would be (IMHO) a disservice to all to suggest that the "squeeze is more important then the juice..." |
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CommoDog
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 5:44pm |
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I remember a conversation like that, in a hotel room
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Attitude is the difference between an adventure and an ordeal.
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Ogre
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Joined: Apr-07-2010 Location: Tuscaloosa AL Status: Offline Points: 119 |
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Posted: May-30-2012 at 10:09pm |
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It is a mission and as such deserves respect. However, any mission I have ever been on if someone did not pull their weight (screwed up) they were removed from the team. Spacing, as stated at morning meetings is 2 seconds (Stagger or Side By Side) behind the bike directly infront of you. Most states, IIRC, have that as a requirement for any kind of driving. If you cannot maintain 2 seconds (or MORE as road conditions merit) then you are a hazard to the team.
We are told, "Do not Dive Bomb the trucks when passing" well, crawling up your platoon mates tailpipe is just as bad. 2 seconds is not that much time to respond to issues that may develop but it is better than 1/4 second which is what some people seem to want to ride. Yes, Motor patrol officers, and the like (including our own illustrious road guards) can and do ride at speed with miniscule amounts of spacing. It looks cool, very professional. However, look at the qualifications for RG. Your average platoon member does not have to meet those qualifications, and as someone has stated, we are not getting any younger (although I am a youngster myself at 45). How to fix the problem? IMHO--ENFORCE the 2 second spacing, ENFORCE the "no sightseeing", ENFORCE the "no poker run". Road Guards, acknowledge that not all riders have your level of competency, we can't run at 65+ (which BTW according to the RFTW page we run 5 MPH UNDER the speed limit) with fractions of a second spacing (less than 80 ft). If you (RGs), or platoon leaders, or even fellow riders see someone NOT following the guidelines, inform leadership and have that person removed from the platoon, keep putting them further and further back in the pack, if necsessary tell them they must leave the pack. It is a mission, but we should not forego safety just to "look cool". Another thought is similar to what someone said about having "squads". Howbout Brigades etc. Our sheer size is an issue unto itself. I know one platoon on SR had over 60 bikes at one time. 3rd platoon, I guess most wanted to be as close to the leaders as they could get but could not do the SbS riding so they picked 3rd plt. I think max platoon size should be 40 bikes, much larger than that an a platoon gets unweildy in traffic (think Chatanooga-multiple lane changes needed), if a cage gets inside a plattoon, FNGs may "freakout" as they don't know the route. As a general idea, I would say after 20 riders in a platoon, the assistant plt leader should ride in the middle of the platoon just in case the platoon has to break for traffic. After 40 a platoon should be split with the assistant plt leader becoming the leader of the "new" platoon. We may want to look at getting additional (alternate) platoon leaders? People going ATW who, if needed, can take over another platoon? At 40 riders per platoon we'd need 16 platoons (using the nubmers that SR had on day 7) and leaders for those platoons. With that many platoons, the pack should break into "Brigades" with the Assistant Coordinator leading the second brigade (8 platoons per brigade). Sorry to rattle on, just ideas bouncing in my otherwise empty head.
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But friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life, and thanks to a benevolent arrangement the greater part of life is sunshine-Thomas Jefferson
SR/AL coord 2012-13 |
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Ogre
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Posted: May-31-2012 at 8:27pm |
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Actually, if you think of it as distance ONE bike travels in 2 seconds it does seem like a large distance. In practice BOTH riders are travelling at 60 mph so they BOTH travel the same feet in that same 2 seconds, the distance linearly is not that much. If my psuedo physics holds, it should be closer to roughly 30 feet. I know I am a bit OCD about spacing. With only one working eye I do not have the benefit of binocular vision to guage the amount of closure on an object so I actually count the seconds (one one-thousand, two one-thousand) from the moment the rear tire of the bike in front crosses a mark (expansion joints are great) until my front tire crosses that same point. If I reach 2 one-thousand at that point I am 2 seconds behind the lead. Visually looking at the distance, you MAY be able to fit 2 bikes in that space MAYBE if they are tire to fender. I know from experience in driving a cage that a full size pick up cannot fit in the space of a 2 second interval between my vehicle and the one I am following.
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But friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life, and thanks to a benevolent arrangement the greater part of life is sunshine-Thomas Jefferson
SR/AL coord 2012-13 |
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PapaSmurf
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Posted: May-31-2012 at 10:27pm |
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The math is straight forward... at 60 mph a bike travels 5280 feet in one minute, or 88 feet per second. A true two second interval produces a spacing of 176 feet, or 58.7 yards, roughly the distance from the back of the end zone to the 50 yard line on a football field... more than enough room to fit three semi trailers or about a dozen mid-size cars. If both bikes are traveling at approximately the same speed (relative speed = zero), the gap will remain constant. A gap this large creates several problems... chief among them is that cages and trucks can easily bust the formation at will, an obvious safety hazard to all. Also, with a gap that large, it is virtually impossible to perceive the gap opening further until it becomes very pronounced. Large gaps are the primary cause of the "rubber banding" effect that everyone complains so bitterly about. The best way to lessen rubber banding is to ride a tight interval, detect gap opening early, and correct it with very small throttle connections.
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Dave "Papa Smurf" Klemme
Westminster, CO USMC 1967-1992 RFTW '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '10 '11 '12 '13 "Do it for God and it works for good; do it for good and it works for God"--B.C.'s Wiley |
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LittleMac
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Posted: Jun-04-2012 at 4:31pm |
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At the close interval that seems to be "tight" you cannot see anything but the rear fender and tail light of the bike directly in front of you...I know from experience with RFTW. I can tell you that going into Rainelle in '09, five (5) bikes rode directly into a ditch about two feet wide and two feet deep consisting of rocks about 3" large...Five bikes followed the bike in front of them and rode off into that ditch! I know because I was one of them! fortunately, we all stood on the floorboards and turned Ultras and Standards and 'glides into Enduros and twisted the wick and popped back up to the road...actually staying in position, but not a fun happening!
In 2010, the ride to Rainelle was a free ride....head on at your own pace and enjoy the ride and we formed up (most still moving) just before entering Rainelle....much better ride!  |
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shadow
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Posted: Jun-04-2012 at 5:49pm |
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I LIVE IN THIS AREA. RTE 60 IS AN INTERESTING RIDE TO SAY THE LEAST. ONE MITE ENCOUNTER PEA GRAVEL ONE MINUTE N MUD SLIDES THE NEXT. A LIL SPACING ON THIS ROAD IS A MUST. I GOT CROWED INTO THE DITCH LINE ONE TIME WHEN I WAS JUST OUT RIDING. THOUGHT I CULD RIDE IT OUT N ALL WAS GOING WELL-UNTILL MY FLOOR BOARDS CAUGHT A ROCK OR TREE ROOT. THE BIKE SUDDENLY STOPPED N I DID NOT. SLIDDING UP N HITTING THE TANK--MUCH LIKE WE DID AS KIDS WHEN WE CAME DOWN ON THE CROSS BAR OF OUR BIKES. NEEDLESS TO SAY WHEN 2 RAFTERS STOPPED TO CHECK ON ME--I REPLIED IN A TENOR VOICE--THAT I WAS OK. |
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the Shadow
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Gallupe
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Posted: Jun-04-2012 at 7:15pm |
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The ride to and from Angle Fire and Rainelle are one of my favorite parts of the Central Route. Remember well (as FNG 2009 and all rides since) of the leadership stressing potential hazards, explaining we will be going single file and for everyone to ride their own rides. Where both roads demand full attention (really easy to hit a corner too fast or get surprised by gravel or coal dust) the twists and turns are just plain fun.
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Gallupe, USAF-RET 7/1978 to 8/1998
Honoring all who serve. Remember and paying respects for all who paid the ultimate price to keep us free. |
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redwing
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Posted: Jun-05-2012 at 12:50am |
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Well stated, Pine Tree. The safety of everyone participating is just as important and demands the same attention as the mission. IMO, they are inseparable or at least should be. |
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USMC 66-70
"Semper Fidelis" Having earned the title of Marine it becomes a integral part of who and what we will become later in life. http://vmfa542.com/ |
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Vapors wrote: